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Post  kootenai on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:31 pm

Dennman wrote:Update:
One wrench toasted.Trying thicker wrench and heat tomorrow.I suggested to cut them off.That doesn't seem to be an option for him.
Shocked holy hell!!!!!
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Post  Dennman on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:42 pm

Well sinceI had a spare James rocker box gasket and feeling a little antsy,I unbolted the rear head and box for a looksee.Considering that these were new rocker arms and the shovel only ran for maybe 10 min. over a few short runs,I think i've found the Tick source (and maybe the brass too).Here's the rear intake valve and rocker.
[img]Well Son of a Bitch & Every fuckin swear word that I'm to pissed to post! - Page 2 Tickin13[/img]
[img]Well Son of a Bitch & Every fuckin swear word that I'm to pissed to post! - Page 2 Tickin14[/img]

Not the best pic of the valve end but the dull area is the contact area on the rocker.It is actually impressed into the valve end and not just on the surface.Seems strange as the shovel ran good for the short periods that I had it running.
I'm thinking now that it's either a slightly bent valve sticking and snapping loose or a galled up guide that's jamming the stem then breaking loose under spring tension.These heads have triple springs on the valves.
Called the wrench with my findings.He was a little hesitant in his response since he doesn't know a trusted machinist around here now to do his headwork.
Think i'll be pulling the front head/box apart too.After talking to him the brass in the front exh. pushrod wouldn't have come from the rear int. guide.Better now than later.
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Post  Big Dave on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:56 pm

Dennis if you are running a B cam why triple springs , thats a lot of seat pressure and hard on the whole valve train

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Post  Dennman on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:15 pm

Big Dave wrote:Dennis if you are running a B cam why triple springs , thats a lot of seat pressure and hard on the whole valve train

Dave

That's what the S&S Super Stock Big Bore heads w/.590 lift come with.
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Post  Big Dave on Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:12 am

Dennman wrote:
Big Dave wrote:Dennis if you are running a B cam why triple springs , thats a lot of seat pressure and hard on the whole valve train

Dave

That's what the S&S Super Stock Big Bore heads w/.590 lift come with.

But your only running .485 lift , talk to your indie but i would lose a spring , all that extra ware and taer for no reason it may will be why the rockers were acting up

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Post  Dennman on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:42 am

I've been runnin this style head w/ a B cam for more than 10 yrs.Never had this bad constant ticking before.
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Post  Roadhammer on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:34 pm

Sure ya dont have a broken spring in there somewhere? Worth checkin out.....could explain the ticking....

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Post  Dennman on Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:09 pm

Roadhammer wrote:Sure ya dont have a broken spring in there somewhere? Worth checkin out.....could explain the ticking....
I checked the springs out already as soon as I had the box off the head.None broken.
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Post  Dennman on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:19 pm

Well I took the rear head into the Wrench today to have the intake valve checked out.He checked both valves and couldn't find any problem with them.The guides aren't bronze.
Back on to working on the bottom end again to find out what's not up to spec in there.


Last edited by Dennman on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Big Dave on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:36 pm

Dennis has he got the barrels off yet

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Post  Dennman on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:11 am

Big Dave wrote:Dennis has he got the barrels off yet

Dave
Nope!
He did get one stud to start pulling out of the case though.I told him to cut the fuckers off.
He said he's trying to do as little damage as possible.I said whatever...they gotta come apart so I know what's up in there.
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Post  Dennman on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:50 pm

Update:
Well the barrels are off cheers .No more pulled studs. cheers Just that first one that he tried without heat.He said once they let go there was no problem getting them off.

Bottom end is good.On the low end of specs (.0015). Nothing wrong inside the cases.

Front rod wrist pin bushing is AOK.

Now the source of the brass in oil.The rear wrist pin bushing has spun.He hasn't seen one do that in his last 20 yrs. of wrenchin.I asked whether the rod was damaged.He has yet to pull it out and see if it'll take a new bushing without problems.

Sense of relief knowing the source of all that brass in the oil.I questioned him on alternative base nuts.He's going to check into some flange nuts for the barrels.Says he's used them before on Axtell cylinders.I just may get this scoot together before the end of May. Very Happy
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Post  Big Dave on Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:01 pm

Thats fantastic news Den , of all the options that costs the least money cheers

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Post  Roadhammer on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:49 pm

Great news Denn, caught it in time...what causes a wrist pin bushing to spin tho???????

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Post  zaac on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:53 pm

A Harley tech here told me 12 pt nuts work good on S&S big bore.

I have not tried it.
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Post  Dennman on Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:06 pm

Roadhammer wrote:Great news Denn, caught it in time...what causes a wrist pin bushing to spin tho???????

I think this goes back to the pounding that the pistons took from that carb shaft piece and screw that got in there.Only thing that I could think of.The front took a bit of pounding but apparently not enough to do the damage seen in the rear rod.
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Post  sunnydog on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:31 am

Real happy to hear this Denn, the Road Weerier is a tough old girl...full speed ahead on your top end rebuild!! sunny
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Post  Dennman on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:31 pm

Looking even better w/ replacing the bushing in the rod.100% sure he can do it without splitting the cases. cheers Rod is usable. cheers Oversize bushing on it's way.He has to hunt down a reamer .His in shop reamer is not portable to use w/ the rod in the case.

Some blowby on the piston skirts but new rings and a hone should fix that.I had 120 psi before I tore it down so minimum work to tighten it up is likely. cheers

Checking his old stock for flange nuts to see if there's enough clearance on the barrels to get a wrench on those nuts.He expressed his reluctance to use heat on the tall nuts to break them loose.He was afraid to damage the painted coating on the barrels.Said that you can barely see any evidence from that.I said no worries since the paint around the top of the barrels has been lifted by the leaking head gaskets from the last screwed heads.Cosmetics are not a priority at this time.

Two calls from him in as many days after hearing nothing for quite a while.This is mind settling to hear that rebuild is progressing smoothly now.
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Post  kootenai on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:56 pm

fuckin "A" denn!!! glad to hear this update,right on,right on!!!!!!!!! Very Happy
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Post  Shakerattlenroll on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:37 pm

This is great news :-)
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Post  Roadhammer on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:42 pm

Awesome! See ya in about 75 days cheers

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Post  Dennman on Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:50 am

Roadhammer wrote:Awesome! See ya in about 75 days cheers
Hoping to be out in the Kootenays a little before that.Plannin on hittin the road June 26.
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Post  Dennman on Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:23 pm

Fri update.:

Got another phone call from Hein this a.m.

The flange nuts won't clear to fit on the cylinders so it's back to S&S tall nuts.These have now been changed by S&S from a 1/2" hex to a 7/16" hex so a box end wrench/torque adapter should be able to fit .

Pistons:
Since the back one was flopping in the cylinder,it has about .0075 clearance now.New slugs on order. I wanted to replace the screw damaged ones even if they were usable.That should remedy the blowby.

Very Happy Harrrr Harrrr Harrrr -more power.
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Post  Big Dave on Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:28 pm

What compression do you run Dennis

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Post  Dennman on Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:46 pm

Big Dave wrote:What compression do you run Dennis

Dave

I don't actually know.An educated guess, based on the S&S parts that are in the shovel,is 8.5-1.
It's basically an 88" S&S Sidewinder kit.I bought the wheels,rods,big bore barrels & pistons years ago when I reached the final bore on my stock 74" barrels.After spinning crank bearings in the stock cases,I bought the Super Stock cases and heads.
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Post  zaac on Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:55 pm

My Sidewinder kit said 7.5.

Someone told me you still can't get a wrench on them new S&S nuts and after spending $70 or more.

Might have been Carlos but he doesn't have big bore. I will ask him.
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Post  Dennman on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:26 pm

zaac wrote:My Sidewinder kit said 7.5.

Someone told me you still can't get a wrench on them new S&S nuts and after spending $70 or more.

Might have been Carlos but he doesn't have big bore. I will ask him.

I managed to get a wrench on the current base nuts.Had to do some fine tuning to the box end to clear the bottom fins on the barrels.I think the screw in the combustion chambers stressed the nuts and jammed the threads.Before the screw damage I could back off the nuts w/ an open end wrench.
Compression ratio has never been high priority for me.What I have gets me up mountains fully loaded and down those prairie roads w/ no problems.
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Post  zaac on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:36 pm

I ground a few wrenches but they ended up breaking. I think I get fairly close to 40 or whatever the torque is on them with the open end. Carlos did tell me you can't get a torque adapter on the 7/16 head nuts.

There is one decent indy here and just yesterday we had a good talk about the joys and advantages of low compression. He had an 88" with 90 psi. Was a dream to kickstart, ran on any gas and still had plenty of power. What's wrong with that?
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Post  Dennman on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:36 am

zaac wrote:I ground a few wrenches but they ended up breaking. I think I get fairly close to 40 or whatever the torque is on them with the open end. Carlos did tell me you can't get a torque adapter on the 7/16 head nuts.

There is one decent indy here and just yesterday we had a good talk about the joys and advantages of low compression. He had an 88" with 90 psi. Was a dream to kickstart, ran on any gas and still had plenty of power. What's wrong with that?

Even w/ a little blowby, I had 120 psi in both cylinders before I tore it down to find the loud tick.That's what made me think the noise was rocker/valve train related and not a piston problem.
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Post  Big Dave on Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:39 am

See this is where i get confused Rolling Eyes , I know you run a B cam with great success but everthing i read says a B needs 10/1 to work properly

This shit makes my head hurt Very Happy

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Post  zaac on Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:02 am

Dennman wrote:
Even w/ a little blowby, I had 120 psi in both cylinders before I tore it down to find the loud tick.That's what made me think the noise was rocker/valve train related and not a piston problem.

You must have a little more compression than me. Even with the S&S 514, which is supposed to build pressure, I'm only at 120psi. I still have stock heads, maybe the chamber is bigger than your S&S. Do you have the 1620 pistons?

Edit: I forgot about the elevation difference. With you nearly sea level and me 2400" our numbers are right on with the cams we are using.


Last edited by zaac on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  zaac on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:06 pm

Big Dave wrote:See this is where i get confused Rolling Eyes , I know you run a B cam with great success but everthing i read says a B needs 10/1 to work properly

This shit makes my head hurt Very Happy

Dave

According to the calculator I use 10-1 and a B cam would give you 180psi at sea level. Nothing I would try with a Shovel. An Evo would have no problem with that.

Dave, have you read this catalog? The bottom of page 22 you may find interesting.

http://www.andrewsproducts.com/motorcycle-parts/catalog
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Post  Big Dave on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:30 pm

Thanks Zaac but why do people on the other site say a B grind is a dog at less then 9.5/1 ????

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Post  zaac on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:36 pm

I dunno for sure. Have you played with this calculator before. It has been quite accurate for me.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm

One thing for sure is Dennis has proven the B cam works good with low compression. He kept right up with me and Carlos and our lighter bikes.
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Post  Dennman on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:26 pm

I'm not trying to squeek every bit of power out of my engine. I know what works for me and don't pay attention to the HP/Torque junkies on the SH site.I don't think many of them own only a shovel and do a 3500-5000 70 mph fully loaded tour every year.If it weren't for that hack machinist that screwed up my B carb and overcharged me,i'd still be on my 2006 rebuild w/ the S&S Big Bore Super Stock parts.
As far as what pistons.I don't know.I bought those back in '96 w/ the Sidewinder Kit.
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Post  Shakerattlenroll on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:59 pm

I think your a smart man
More power eats itself quicker, that's my thinking anyhow
I base that on the quarter mile cars that do 4 runs and are rebuilt Wink
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Post  zaac on Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:24 pm

I'm with ya Denn.
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Post  coopsta on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:04 am

The B is kind of a tweener for duration, at 256 duration and 8.5:1 you certainly aren't getting all the potential out of that cam as you could with maybe 9.5:1 but you aren't suffering either. I think lower compression motors do better with shorter duration, higher lift type cams that build compression like the S&S 514 or andrews 3 or an A grind. They give you a little bit more grunt down low where we like it and we don't see them fall off cause we never take em over 4000 rpm.
I do know that riding up the salmo pass with Dennis and the land barge, he had no trouble keeping up and we climbed that bitch at probably 75-80 mph. So his B had the snort for sure.
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Post  Big Dave on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:14 am

What about the Andrews #2 .490 lift but only 230 duration

Sorry for drift dennis , any more news on yours

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Post  Dennman on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:43 am

Big Dave wrote:What about the Andrews #2 .490 lift but only 230 duration

Sorry for drift dennis , any more news on yours

Dave
Howdy rendeer ,
New pistons and wrist pin bushing on order.Hein's an S&S dealer so parts should get here quickly.Then the sizing barrel work and assembly.

Maybe you tech minded fellows will understand this:
When I bought these new S&S Big Bore heads,from the S&S dealer,Sam in Smithers,he said with my setup, "toss the B and get an S&S 585 for stinky speed or an Andrews 6 for stupid torque".Sam has a shop (Eye Candy Customs) in Smithers drag races up in the Smithers/Prince George.
Now after telling him that I'm riding a fully decked touring style scoot, he dropped the suggestions.I figured that these cams would probably be better in a lightweight "Hobby" scoot and not a serious tourer.
Any thoughts Question
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