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Post  Dennman on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:04 pm

Fired up the scoot this aft.Started and idled great!
However the loud Tickin noise, that I spent all the money and time to fix, is still there.
Depressed is puttin it mildly. Not lookin good for my annual tour to happen.
At a loss with what to do.Alot of brass was in the old oil and filter.I'm thinkin it's a rod bushing now.
Feel like just ridin it locally til it breaks and park it.Too late to get any major work done before summer even if I can find someone that I trust to do the work.
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Post  kootenai on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:05 pm

ahh fuck dennman........terribly sorry to read this..........dont know what i can say,,is there anything we can do to help out????? just name it man!!!!
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Post  sunnydog on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:45 pm

Shit man, sorry. Yep I'm w Koot, anything we can do, standing by.
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Post  Big Dave on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:57 pm

Can you pinpoint it a bit better with a stethiscope mabe cam lobe or something

You could always take my bike i dont see me getting much use again this year

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Post  Dennman on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:18 pm

Thanks for the offers fellas.Dave,i did the srewdriver behind the ear on my rocker boxes and they sound good.My shop is so narrow that I can't get low enough to get a good listen to the cam chest.
It's a loud ticking but I couldn't isolate it before the teardown.
I going to try and do a video with my camera to see if I can capture the sound.Maybe the rythym of the tick will give you fellas an idea of whatsa slopping around.
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Post  Roadhammer on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:50 pm

Bummer Denn sorry to hear this, I dont think Id risk riding it till you find it, If its a rod bushing it could spit a wristpin clip and you know what happens then....how much brass are you getting in the oil? Hoping its lifter related, seems that the cam chest would be a good place to start, if I can help in any way please let me know. Shit if it was a flatside Id say Case cam bushing but ya got a bearing. what about the cam cover bushing or maybe pinion bushing? Just thinking of other places where theres brass besides wristpin bushings and rocker bushings.

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Post  Dennman on Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:55 am

Roadhammer wrote:Bummer Denn sorry to hear this, I dont think Id risk riding it till you find it, If its a rod bushing it could spit a wristpin clip and you know what happens then....how much brass are you getting in the oil? Hoping its lifter related, seems that the cam chest would be a good place to start, if I can help in any way please let me know. Shit if it was a flatside Id say Case cam bushing but ya got a bearing. what about the cam cover bushing or maybe pinion bushing? Just thinking of other places where theres brass besides wristpin bushings and rocker bushings.

On the way home from the Alberni Toy Run is when the ticking became constant.
Before that there was a very slight seldom heard tick.It was happening w/ my old S&S heads that had the inserts pulled out.Thought then it was the inserts banging on the barrels.Never saw any brass in the oil then.
After Alberni I pulled the front exh. lifter cover to check the adjustment.I pulled the pushrod out and alot of brass came out of the pushrod w/ the oil.That made me think one of the rocker arms was the cause.I've never seen this before in all the times that i've pulled the heads off.
I just recently drained the oil tank and there was alot of suspended brass in it.I cut open the filter and it had fine brass in all the pleats.Definately a bushing somewhere.
I'll be tryin to get the scoot over far enough so I can get down beside it for a listen to the cam chest w/ a stethoscope.Trying to move the scoot and gettin down in the cramped space usually buggers my back for a couple days.
The back screwin up is the worst part of wrenchin on the scoot.

Well i can get video but no sound.
Here's a pic of my oil filter.
[img]Well Son of a Bitch & Every fuckin swear word that I'm to pissed to post! Tickin10[/img]
Tried to stethescope the tic but nothing at rockers, heads or cam chest.Even tried on the cylinders.
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Post  Big Dave on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:35 pm

Without pissin you off lets start from scratch
How about front pushrod tube ?
As you say you had the bronze in the oil before you took it down then we can eliminate the top , could be seperate issues the tic could be in the primary . is your breather sleeved ? did you actually pull the valves mabe a guide going - i dont know just throughing shit out there

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Post  Roadhammer on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:43 pm

Is the noise at idle only? Or does it go away with revs? More brass in the oil pump...long brass bushing in there, your gonna have to get inside the cam chest thats for sure. Was there more brass dust in the oil rom one pushrod tube compared to the others? Just thinkin....

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Post  Dennman on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:52 pm

Big Dave wrote:Without pissin you off lets start from scratch
How about front pushrod tube ?
As you say you had the bronze in the oil before you took it down then we can eliminate the top , could be seperate issues the tic could be in the primary . is your breather sleeved ? did you actually pull the valves mabe a guide going - i dont know just throughing shit out there

Dave
I got solids Dave.The only way oil gets in is from the top down.My lifter cup has no hole so the pushrod held the oil/brass.
S&S big bore Super Stock cases.Breather not sleeved.I never pulled the valves.I only checked the seat w/ gas in the chamber.Nothing leaked through.
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Post  Roadhammer on Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:26 pm

Not tryin to be a smartass but its been my experience that a good place to start is the last thing you worked on, maybe its just me but Ive missed things in the past... seems to me you recently worked on your rockers correct? Is it possible something aint quite right up there? Seems to me your pretty in tune with your ride and the brass is a recent development....maybe the brass and the ticking arent related? IE...ticking is lifter related...loose roller etc and the brass is related somehow to the recent rocker work? Just sayin.... This has got me curious now....however I think you caught it in time....better to deal with it now than on a road trip.

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Post  Dennman on Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:56 pm

Roadhammer wrote:Is the noise at idle only? Or does it go away with revs? More brass in the oil pump...long brass bushing in there, your gonna have to get inside the cam chest thats for sure. Was there more brass dust in the oil rom one pushrod tube compared to the others? Just thinkin....
Fuck I just typed a long fuckin post explaining my whole process of diagnosis and remedy and it all vanished.

The ticking starts after a short time from a cold start.Rev it up and it increases frequency til it quits momentarily.Hold throttle there and the tick returns.The reason that I redid the rockers was from the brassy oil that i only found in the front pushrod.That discovery was after the Alberni Run when the ticking became LOUD and constant.That's when I checked pushrod adjustment and found the brass.Upon teardown the bushings in all rockers,although outa specs,weren't that wore out to have put all the brass in the oil and filter.
A few years back I had a B carb rebushed and the hack machinist broke the butterfly shaft between the screws and didn't tell me. Out in Alta. a screw and part of the shaft got sucked in.Pounded both pistons and S&S Big Bore heads.That started the insert failure that took 2 years (diff. years) for both to become useless.I'm thinking now that this shrapnel has pounded all the rod bushings too.I put on new S&S heads last spring (2012) and the higher compression from unleaking gaskets has sped up the bushing wear in them over the summer.
I'm resigning myself to takin the engine out and getting the bottom end redone.
I've put a stethescope all over and can't pick up the ticking.Strange that it is so loud externally and I can't isolate the source.
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Post  Dennman on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:36 pm

Today I checked into the cam chest.Everything looks real good in there.The cam lobes were good and the bushing was still a snug fit.My steel breather was clean and the cavity unscored.Now on to the chore of pullin the engine.Finding room in the shop for all the parts taken off will be the P.I.A.
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Post  Big Dave on Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:19 pm

Sucks dennis ,. dont know what else to say . its march 1st we have to be able to get it done in 2 months

If you have to out source 1 mile or 500 miles same differance i am sure one of us can help i know i will do what ever it takes to help

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Post  Dennman on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:01 pm

Well it is what it is Dave.All this past and present damage from a wee screw.A little satisfaction knowing the "machinist" closed up shop.
I've got a couple guys in mind for the redo.
The fella that i've used for the last couple builds.He's the best choice.He has a good reputation and is the best on setting it all up in the bottom end.It's actually a testament to his work that it has held together this long.I gotta have 10,000+ mi. on it after I got screwed.Probably close to 15,000. He's gotten away from shovels lately and is usually booked well in advance.He got a little slack on the small details (left out a pushrod tube gasket in the rocker box,didn't torque barrel nuts) so I've taken on doin whatever I can manage to do myself w/ my tools and knowhow.
There's another fella that's local too. I've never heard anything first hand about his work.My brother,w/ a 2008 HD,has heard favourable reports about him.
On to the removal.

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Post  jmac on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:37 am

Denis you can ride the FLT if you want till ya sort out the problem sorted out Rolling Eyes jmac

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Post  Dennman on Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:15 am

jmac wrote:Denis you can ride the FLT if you want till ya sort out the problem sorted out Rolling Eyes jmac
I thought you were swappin out the front end on that one.
Ridin a shovel would sure make the time, that i'll have to wait for the bottom end to come back,a little easier to endure.Appreciate the offer Johnny.
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Post  Dennman on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:04 pm

Got the engine out and on the bench for a little cleanin.Damn glad I took the heads off before I tried liftin that sucker.Damn thing has gained weight since I pulled it last.

Dirty Hole

[img]Well Son of a Bitch & Every fuckin swear word that I'm to pissed to post! Tickin11[/img]

Sittin Naked somewhat

[img]Well Son of a Bitch & Every fuckin swear word that I'm to pissed to post! Tickin12[/img]
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Post  sunnydog on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:39 am

You'll get er figgered...pullin for ya. sunny
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Post  Dennman on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:23 pm

Did a quick clean up of the cases and took the cases w/ barrels attached down to the wrench.Caught him in his empty shop.Left it there on his bench and will call back in a couple weeks to see the verdict.He's ailing w/ a bad back so says he's on a slowdown of takin in new work.He'll have it tore down by then.Glad I took it down and didn't just call to see if he was busy.
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Post  kootenai on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:43 pm

will be standing by axiously waiting for the diagnosis dennman
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Post  Dennman on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:06 pm

It's in the best hands around here.He mentioned thrust bearings on the crank pin are brass tooThis is the first that i've pulled the S&S big bore cases outa the frame.interesting to find a drain plug on the bottom.Although it's not possible to get at it w/ the skid plate in the frame.
Biding my time now cleaning all the removed parts and those inaccessible spots when the engine is in the frame.
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Post  kootenai on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:29 pm

amazing how much shit builds up under yer motor,,,,could fuckin near find D.B cooper hiding out there.........
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Post  Big Dave on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:16 pm

Courious- why didnt you pull the barrells you would have been able to diagnos the problem , wrist pin , rod shake etc

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Post  Dennman on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:04 am

Big Dave wrote:Courious- why didnt you pull the barrells you would have been able to diagnos the problem , wrist pin , rod shake etc

Dave
I've tried Dave.Only broke wrenches and started to round off the nuts.These are S&S big bore barrels and use tall cylindrical nuts w/ a 7/16" hex on top.They have to be installed as the barrels are set down to the gasket surface.There's no room to get a box end wrench on them without grinding the circumference and thickness of the wrench.Then the wrench isn't strong enough to break the nuts loose.Regular barrel nuts won't fit without grinding into the barrels for clearance of the nut and wrench.
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Post  Denistheshovelmenace on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:38 pm

Sooooooooooo we can do the shovel thing on the island then? We can bring parts, Dennis makes breakfast then it's fixing his bike........................riding the island while helping him out would be a blast.


If you are home all summer Dennis let me know, will ride out to see ya.
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Post  Dennman on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:33 pm

Denistheshovelmenace wrote:Sooooooooooo we can do the shovel thing on the island then? We can bring parts, Dennis makes breakfast then it's fixing his bike........................riding the island while helping him out would be a blast.


If you are home all summer Dennis let me know, will ride out to see ya.
Hell there's barely room in the shop for me and the scoot.Sure don't want any extra bodies watchin me second guessing every assemblage of parts.

I'm gonna be outa here close to my usual schedule of just after July 1st.It's lookin like I may even get away sooner if all I need is new bushings in rods and thrust washers.I'll do some break-in miles and retorque a few times before that.incase I do get delayed I've been checking out some cycle events in Alta. that might be of interest.
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Post  Big Dave on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:40 pm

Dennis

Sharon and I are looking at being in Osoyoos for the Aug long , if ths works out for the rock creek bash we can share a brew

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Post  Dennman on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:46 pm

Big Dave wrote:Dennis

Sharon and I are looking at being in Osoyoos for the Aug long , if ths works out for the rock creek bash we can share a brew

dave
The Boogie Bash is on my tentative list.My usual Aug. long weekend run in Creston is cancelled.There's also a 4 day bash at the Riders Ranch that weekend.
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Post  Shakerattlenroll on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:58 pm

Shit man ..i dunno what to say...
But i sure hope we can help you get her rollin again intime to get you to horsthief
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Post  Dennman on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:46 pm

Called the wrench today and he's having the same problem that I had.He can't get the base nuts to loosen off.He's got one loose but it's actually pulling the stud with it.Gonna try localized heat which he's been avoiding.He's going to call tomorrow w/ the outcome.
Those tall S&S base nuts are a pain.They all have to be backed off as the barrel is lifted from the cases.
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Post  kootenai on Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 pm

do you need to run that style of base nuts denn? or will regular nuts work better? im just curious if it has somthing to do with the big bore jugs......,,,,hope it all goes with out any surprise hitches man.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ave a good night eh!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,way past my crash out time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,glad the weeks over tomorrow.
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Post  Dennman on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:37 am

kootenai wrote:do you need to run that style of base nuts denn? or will regular nuts work better? im just curious if it has somthing to do with the big bore jugs......,,,,hope it all goes with out any surprise hitches man.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ave a good night eh!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,way past my crash out time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,glad the weeks over tomorrow.
Regular base nuts are too wide to fit on the studs and clear the barrels.Some serious grinding of the barrels is the only way to make them fit.That's not something that I want to do.S&S must have done research on this setup to do it this way.
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Post  Shakerattlenroll on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:00 pm

How did that work out for him ?
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Post  Dennman on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:58 pm

Shakerattlenroll wrote:How did that work out for him ?
Apparently not well as I didn't get a call from him yesterday.
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Post  Shakerattlenroll on Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:55 pm

Shitty
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Post  Big Dave on Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:08 pm

Ok its been a week - time for an update

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Post  Dennman on Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:13 pm

I was going to call today but it's April Fool's Day And Easter Monday.Doubtful that he's in the shop.Tomorrow for sure.
I've been trying to figure why these base nuts have been so hard to undo.I'm thinking, that when the carb screw got pounded around in there a few years back, that the barrels were pulled up w/ the heads until the headbolt inserts pulled.The base stud threads and nuts have jammed together (kinda x-threaded).The base gaskets have been weeping for a while and I could never get any motion on the nuts without starting to round them off.
..
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Post  kootenai on Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:38 pm

bumping this up...... howdy den,just wondering how things are going??
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Post  Dennman on Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:43 pm

Update:
One wrench toasted.Trying thicker wrench and heat tomorrow.I suggested to cut them off.That doesn't seem to be an option for him.
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