Might be luck not sure bad or good?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  coopsta on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:21 pm

Well some of you already know the cluster fuck I am having trying to get the shovel prepped for the run next week.....was having some odd shifts on the 4 speed and kicker was seeping out bushings making a mess so I pulled kicker cover and found chunks of brass.....got worried and misdiagnosed my problem thinking troubles in the gears......pulled the tranny and while turning the mainshaft the tranny locked up....WTF?  Went to pull the countershaft and it starts sliding out and it locks up, ended up driving it out with a punch.....what I found was thrashed bearings and first gear bushing welded itself to the countershaft cluster, and thrust washer and spacer washer roached as well....
  So I was lucky enough to still have my old gears and managed to track down all the parts I need to rebuild so tonight I got some stuff to do.....and in order to change back to the original gears that were stock ratio and new stuff was close ratio I have to pull the mainshaft and change back to the original 3rd gear as well.....

Not a biggie but to tell you the truth I thought that close ratio was bullshit anyways.....and I actually prefer to have the taller 3rd......I was kicking myself after I did the swap last year!!  So again, just like anyone that has heard my story about how I ended up building my stroker motor, be careful what you wish for I guess......positive thinking will somehow always make what you want happen....I wanted to build a stroker for ever....since I was a young guy, got a shovel and all I thought about was building a stroker and the piston ate itself.....I didn't like the belt drive, it ate itself and every fix I did fucked up, even purchasing good replacement parts, they arrived damaged cause I kept telling myself I should change to chain.....now its chain.  So I am not even the least bit suprised when I put in close ratio and it eats itself and I am back to what I decided I preferred.....
  If this doesn't make you believe these beasts have some type of magical soul that can hear you and read your thoughts, then this may change your mind.
  
  Pretty fuckin weird coincidences that just happen.  I know one thing, never park a softail in the same garage as this shovel....nothing but bad can come of it lol....

  Stringtwang
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  sunnydog on Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:46 pm

Yes, agreed on all counts...get that dang thing together now will ya!!!!!
avatar
sunnydog

Posts : 1758
Join date : 2012-10-28
Age : 48
Location : Akimbo Alogo

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  Dennman on Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:23 pm

I'm right there on the screwin up new parts.It's always the newest pieces on mine that get damaged.I've given up makin it look good years ago.Getting it mechanically sound can be tough some years.
Great you got the parts at hand to set it right.
avatar
Dennman

Posts : 1258
Join date : 2012-10-31
Age : 69
Location : Courtenay

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  kootenai on Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:05 am

makes me believe more our steeds,always let you know when somthings gotta be addressed befor the run,, I love old Harleys man,,,,,,
avatar
kootenai
Admin

Posts : 851
Join date : 2012-10-27
Location : british columbia

View user profile http://66-84.canadian-forum.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  zaac on Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:27 pm

Hi Carlos,

Were you using HD oil? Do you know if that is a GL-5 oil? I been reading about GL-5 and it's supposed to be hard on yellow metal. Can't find GL-4 anywhere so I'm staying with 50W motor oil and Lucas to be safe. GL-5 is supposed to be great for rear ends but beware in a tranny. Not sure if the Twinkie tranny's have brass in them but if they don't their tranny oil may just be GL-5. I'm gonna try and find out more.
avatar
zaac

Posts : 132
Join date : 2012-11-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ya it was HD

Post  coopsta on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:59 pm

I ran that light primary/tranny lube in for breaking the new gears in, but I don't know if its GL-5 or not. Aflter I slammed it all back together I just ran straight 80-90 in there and so far no problems other than after a few long days of riding down south I developed the dreaded 4 spd leak yet again, but I think its probably the main drive seal. All I had was some cheap JP cycles seals in my stash, you know the rubber coated ones and I think it may have pooped on me. She leaks about 1/2 cup a day with hard riding. Going to have to rip the primary off and put a good seal in there I guess lol.
Coop
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  zaac on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:58 pm

I tried one of them rubber seals too. They no good. The dealership still had some metal ones at the time so changed it again. I hate that job.

I'm pretty sure that 80-90 you have in there is GL-5. Just curious if that had anything to do with your problem or if it's all bs. Can't find much about the hd oil. One time I asked the counter guy what weight it was but they have no idea about that kind of stuff. Whatever; 50W motor oil is practically the same weight and I'm not bagging the thing so probably don't need a gear oil.
avatar
zaac

Posts : 132
Join date : 2012-11-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Tranny lube

Post  coopsta on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:58 pm

Well I have ran that 80-90 motorcycle tranny lube for a long time and no issues, I doubt it was anything with the oil? That HD tranny lube in my opinion is probably around 60-70 wt by the way it flows. I ran out of it when I was putting everything back together and just used 80-90 for tranny and primary but I noticed that the heavier viscosity gear oil made the clutch plates drag just a touch so the HD stuff has to be just a bit lighter vis cause the plates don't drag at all with that light shit in there.
My opinion is 50 wt just isn't a good replacement for gear oil. I think the gear oil stands up better to the shearing forces that the gears put the oil thru. I carry 50 wt with me so I could use it in any hole because 50 wt is better than sweet fuck all, but I would tend to lean towards 80-90 or something a little heavier yet possibly. Funny you like the Lucas additive and its like syrup but you put 50 wt in and that is pretty thin? Why not just go to 80-90 and a bit of lucas?
I know that lucas stuff is great, used to run it with the old gears in the slush box. Soon as I put it in the tranny acted completely different and only in good ways. Shifted better, easier. I am going to toss some in before heading to the thief me thinks.
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Far as oil?

Post  coopsta on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:10 pm

I really don't think my countershaft eating itself had fuck all to do with the type of oil. I know it was on the tight side of the spec sheet but .008" is between .007-.012" so there really should have been ample room. Benny told me he always rebuilds with at least .010" endplay just to be safe and I will have to agree with him. I think the andrews cluster just had shitty tiwanese bearings and they failed. In my opinion the bearings started to fail, started eating the countershaft then the shaft got hot as fuck and melted the low gear bushing to the cluster. the heat was coming from the inside out not outside in. Why else would the bushing seize to the cluster and yet the low gear was still freely rotating on that same bushing? The thrust washer shows heat building right around the hole where the shaft goes thru and radiating outward.
There is no way those bearings should fail even if there was barely any endplay, to much gap there from the bearings to the thrust washer. But the bearings where wore down to flat in places like they were skidding not rotating, and there is a big wear spot on the countershaft where they were skidding.
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  kootenai on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:11 pm

whats the lucas stuff twang? is it labeled for gear box use,,in case I ever run across it,,i would probably try it out...
avatar
kootenai
Admin

Posts : 851
Join date : 2012-10-27
Location : british columbia

View user profile http://66-84.canadian-forum.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  zaac on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:47 pm

Lucas is an oil additive that Doc and Hawg use to recommend to smooth out shifting. Only takes 25%. I never noticed a difference with my worn out tranny but when I rebuilt it I tightened up the clearances and the shifting felt tight. Decided to try the Lucas again and it did smooth it out.

I would like to use 80-90 but can't find it in GL-4. GL-5 has an extreme pressure additive in it that creates a film onto the metal and when you really root on it it will wear out the the film instead of the gears. When it gets worn off of brass it takes some of the brass with it. So some people claim. 50W motor oil is same viscosity as 80-90 gear lube. The Lucas helps my tranny shift smoother and may just help the gears wear less. Kind of a good alternative compared to the risk of screwing up the brass bushings under those gears with a GL-5 lube. Although it was not your problem in this case I'm gonna play it safe. If your tranny lasts 5-10k miles with GL-5 in it I will be convinced I can switch to GL-5:) 

I hope this link works. Best explanation I can find. If it's true. The article is about brass synchro tranny's but should also apply to any tranny with a yellow metal in it.

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
avatar
zaac

Posts : 132
Join date : 2012-11-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Lucas stuff

Post  coopsta on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:54 pm

Ya Lucas has a bunch of different additive products for motors and gear boxes. This stuff is an additive for rear ends and tranny's and comes in a quart sized container. You should be able to find it at any of your "finer" automotive lubrication dealers like canuck junk/napa/bumper to bumper. Its a white jug with blue writing on it. It looks like honey when you pour it out and it says to use about 25% to the gear box, so when filling up tranny put 3/4 litre of gear oil and 1/4 litre of additive. You will notice smoother shifts and less cluncks.
Twang
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

GL-5

Post  coopsta on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:57 pm

I will have a gander at the jug of HD oil for tranny and primary. I would think that it would be rated properly for transmissions. The oil I did put in was specifically 80-90 for motorcycle transmissions so I would think that would be fine for a 4 speed application? But I will check it for the GL rating as well.
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  zaac on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:06 pm

thanks; the 80-90 I was looking at was just the basic rear end oil that my '79 4x4 loves so much.
avatar
zaac

Posts : 132
Join date : 2012-11-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Sent Andrews a little letter

Post  coopsta on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:09 pm

I just sent Andrews a little letter asking them why did the countershaft bearings shit the bed like they did if my endplay was at .008". Gave them the long winded explanation of what happened. I did ask them as to the fact of they claim that improper end play will result in "quick" failure. So I estimate I put on at least 2500-3000 miles on the transmission last year since rebuild before noticing an issue. What in their opinion is considered "quick". I would think that improper endplay would fail very soon after installation, and that would be rather immediate like within a couple hundred miles or less.
I want them to admit that them bearings are POS!! I don't think improper end play would allow you to ride to south eastern Sask and back, then head out to the kootneys for a couple weeks and back and burning around southern alberta the rest of the summer and then suddenly the counter shaft starts to eat itself on the bearings....I call bullshit to endplay issues?
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  zaac on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:14 pm

Ya i agree with you 100% cause i got my end play plenty tight. Maybe even tighter than you. Did you also say the bushing under the 1st counter gear welded to the shaft. That's a brass one right? That's what first got me wondering about lube but I agree it was more likely a bearing that started the ball rolling.
avatar
zaac

Posts : 132
Join date : 2012-11-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

I think that 80-90 is good

Post  coopsta on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:15 pm

I was "borrowing" 80-90 gear oil from the shop whenever I changed out oil on my 4 speed up until I rebuilt it. I would just fill an empty jug at the shop with gear oil from the bulk pails. I never had any issues with the tranny and the bearings and countershaft looked pretty fine when I took them out when I did the rebuild. That same countershaft is in the 4 speed now with new B1212 bearings and it made it 2500 miles so far without issue. And I am sure that is the original countershaft that was installed in 84 at the factory.
If its good enough for the ford its good enough for the shovel....thats how I think about it anyways!!!
lol.
Coop
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  zaac on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:20 pm

coopsta wrote:  
 If its good enough for the ford its good enough for the shovel....thats how I think about it anyways!!!
lol.
 Coop

Yup, they are one in the same. The Ford gets straight 40W cause that's what we use in the engine at work lol.
avatar
zaac

Posts : 132
Join date : 2012-11-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Low gear bushing pooped and fuck close ratio

Post  coopsta on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:26 pm

Yes the bushing was literally welded right to the countershaft cluster. I hacksawed the bushing in half and had to use a chisel and hammer to peel it off the countershaft cluster, but the low gear was turning freely on that same bushing strangely enough? So that tells me the heat came from inside out not outside in as the manufacturer warns would happen if not enough endplay was given. They state that the low gear would fail in a very short period of time if improper endplay was not given.

I did say to Andrews that although the close ratio did shift nicely that for our riding habits that I was not a fan of the 1.35 ratio. It was actually nicer to go back to the 1.23 ratio to have the taller 3rd gear. And I would not build another tranny with the close ratio gear set. It was very nice to have the 1.23 ratio in for that trip we went on. There is no way you would be running up to 60-65 mph in 3rd with a 1.35 ratio. The shovel would grenade. You get stuck behind some traffic in the hills and there is no way you can lug the shovel uphill at 50 mph, or if you get stuck behind sunny pulling hills at 43 mph you need to have a tall 3rd LMAO!!!
We gotta mod sunny's gears so he can at least do 55 on the super slab!! clown 
Twang
avatar
coopsta

Posts : 423
Join date : 2012-10-29
Age : 49
Location : Brooks Alberta

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  zaac on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:53 pm

Ya tell Sunny he doesn't need mountain gears, just some power. We go up the mountains just fine with prairie gears, eh?

I like the 1.23 3rd gear too. Only time I would go 1.35 is if I went to 2.66 1st cause then you would pretty much be better with the 1.82 2nd and then the shift to a 1.23 3rd would be quite a big shift so the 1.35 would feel better. Make sense to you???? I confused myself there:D 

Sure sounds like your problems didn't start with the brass. Hey for fun why don't you keep testing the 80-90 and me the 50W. But I gotta say so far I'm winning:D Very Happy  If not cause of the oil then my superior rebuilding.lol. j/k don't get mad:D

But you were still within spec so they can't blame it on that.
avatar
zaac

Posts : 132
Join date : 2012-11-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Might be luck not sure bad or good?

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum